Part 2 with Chantelle
Show Notes
In this episode, Broadway performer Chantelle Goode discusses the pressing issues within the performing arts industry, emphasizing that representation alone is insufficient and highlights the importance of valuing the hard work of performers. She shares insights into the daily life of a Broadway performer, the challenges of being a swing, and the necessity of fostering empathy and compassion. Chantelle also shares a funny “swing” story and shares one of her wildest dreams. This episode is for you if you're ready to question the status quo, embrace the messiness of growth, and reimagine what leadership and success can look like in the performing arts.
Timestamps
00:00 Representation in the Arts
03:03 Valuing the Work of Performers
06:14 The Life of a Broadway Performer
08:56 Challenging Toxic Norms
11:48 Embracing Mistakes
17:13 The Journey of a Swing
20:07 Dreams Beyond Broadway
24:05 Empathy and Compassion
Bio
Chantelle Good is a performer, choreographer, and teaching artist who is currently performing in MJ The Musical on Broadway. Based in Brooklyn, New York, her performance credits include Punchdrunk's Sleep No More and Freddie Falls in Love at the Joyce Theater. She has also danced for artists including JLo, Snoop Dogg, and H.E.R., as well as companies including Still Motion, Loni Landon Dance Project, and The Forest of Arden.
Chantelle works in the non-profit sector as the Co-Artistic Director of TOES FOR DANCE and the Programs Director of Share The Movement. She also enjoys sharing her knowledge and passion for dance as a teaching artist and guest choreographer for institutions and programs across North America. She continues to deepen her learning around decolonizing teaching practices, in order to foster inclusive environments for her students and cultivate community whenever possible.
Transcript
This transcript was made automatically.
Jessica
Hello and welcome to the Story Project. I am your host Jessica Altchiler.
And we are back with Chantelle Good for part two of her episode. In part one, we talked about her journey to Broadway. We talked about body image and how to have conversations about it in the performing arts industry specifically. And Chantelle gave amazing advice about how to stay true to yourself in an industry where that it's not always the easiest thing to do. In today's episode, we talk about what the industry desperately needs to hear, but maybe isn't ready to hear it, aspects of the dance world that are toxic or unacceptable, but we just think it's the way it is. And how using your voice empowers not just yourself, but also everybody around you. Please enjoy part two with Chantelle Good. What's something the industry still isn't ready to hear, but desperately needs to?
Chantelle
A couple of things are coming to mind, but I'll go with the first one. The first one is that representation is not enough. I think that right now we are in a time where the industry is, you know, hiring people or putting people of color specifically into these roles where they are seen. Great. Okay. So now we're on the stage. Awesome. Love that.
I feel like where we need to go is having all of these people at the table, having all of these people at the front of the room, making decisions, actually informing decisions that are being made on the larger scale and the larger system. feel like producers especially or whoever, let's say for example, a black Elphaba, it's like great, okay.
To you, you think that this is great, that you have really done something really important. And yes, it is important. I am not taking anything away from that at all. But for me, I think the next step and where we need to be working towards is having a diverse board of directors or equity representatives, whoever it is. We need to be leaders too. We're not necessarily being trusted yet to have those positions.
And that's a problem. Yeah. That's the first thing I'll say. Representation is not enough. Yes. And then, you know, I think I will always argue that we should be making more money in comparison to these salaries that are public knowledge. You know, we can see how much shows are grossing every week. We know how much money is going into these people's pockets. These people being, you know, the top of the top. It's insane that, you know, swings or
whoever people have been at shows forever are making not nearly as much, we're making pennies in comparison, you know, and doing so much labor. And I think there's just like not an understanding. And I fear that there will never be just of how much work goes into theater, like as performers. I am getting that firsthand now, getting to witness like how hard we all work to make the show happen every day. And it sucks feeling like that work is not valued. And...
I think that's a long road ahead in terms of fighting for more money. We'll get like $100 one year and $100 five years later, which is progress, I guess. But I think I crave more and I think that we should be getting more, period.
Jessica
period, and you're also, okay, so you're talking about the day-to-day life of taking care of yourself and working hard to put this show up, and also keeping in mind that your job is never guaranteed. Your show could close tomorrow. And so you're also having to save up this money for the pockets of time, which can be years of being unemployed. And so...
you're not, it's like, oh, okay, like, yeah, this is a good, decent enough salary, whatever it is, but you're not paying mind to all of the other time. So being paid more for what you're doing in your day to day and knowing that when you are unemployed for those two years and you're running around breaking your back, doing other jobs, you're still having to train.
and prepare and go to auditions and call out work to go to auditions and all of this other stuff that before you even step into a rehearsal for your job.
It's insane. Yeah, it's just like more than full time. It's our lives. It's our livelihood to be fit to do a show and to put it on and to do it, tend to do it really well. Also, you know, like we do so much and should be compensated for all of that time.
Can you talk about kind of the nitty gritty details of the day to day life of a Broadway performer?
Chantelle
Yeah, for sure. you know, also before, I'll just say that before I did Sleep No More, I freelanced for five plus years. So I also know that hustle of going from project to project. I will say right now, like my day to day, you know, I have to go to the gym. have to, you know, make sure I'm active enough to feel like I can show up to the theater ready to go. I have to get groceries. I have to do laundry. I have to, you know, send a bunch of emails for my nonprofit. I have to...
you know, go out and buy whatever it is for my cat. Like I am constantly on the go, constantly. I feel like there's no time to really, this sounds terrible, but I'm trying to get better at carving time out to rest. But you know, there are just so many other things involved in my day before I get to the theater. It's insane. I, know, on the good days, those things are like teaching a class or taking a dance class. They are in relation to
my art, but that's not always the case. And I know for friends of mine, they're working other jobs in the day or like they're doing admin for another company or something corporate. You know, I think we all have our supplementary things that help us, whether we're doing a full-time job or not. I think we are always like kind of hustling, whatever that means to us, unfortunately.
Yeah, 100%. So what's something in the dance world or in this broader industry that you once thought was just the way it is, but now you know it's toxic and unacceptable?
Mmm, something I thought that was just the way it is. Well, what's interesting is that I really didn't know a lot about the Broadway theater realm, especially. Like nothing at all. So I think I was coming in really blind and like kind of, I'm not gonna use the term naive because I don't think I'm naive, but I didn't really know how things operated in general. So I think everything to me was, okay. Cool, we have to hold Thursdays and Fridays every week.
Chantelle
even if we're not called or, oh, okay, swings have to come to this rehearsal even though we might not be needed. But then I already came into Midtown from the city or from Brooklyn and now I'm just stuck here for four hours. Like, you know, I think there are things around our time that were kind of a shock to me. Like this feels like a waste. This feels like time that we could all be spending elsewhere or seeing another show or just doing anything else really. It feels like there is this beholden
feeling to our job and to the theater that I think at first I thought was good, like, we're all really dedicated and we'll all show up. But then over time, you know, I've been in the show for almost a year now. I feel like, no, we're actually asked to do far too much in terms of holding time. Yeah, I think the way that we are expected to have our lives revolve around the show versus the show is something that is adding to my life. It's obviously supporting me financially, but it's not my whole life.
you know, and I feel like that is something that people don't understand.
That is something that people don't understand, especially when it's this big dream come true and you're like, okay, I'm here and I'm in this position and it's incredible. And all of a sudden I forgot I'm human. And also not all of a sudden because we're really conditioned to forget that we are human and that we are artists and all of these things. So I really appreciate you voicing that especially because
When you're in the middle of the career that you're in and the job that you have right now, it is really hard to even have any little bit of criticism about what you're doing. So I wish it wasn't like that, but it is. And because of that, I really applaud you for voicing that.
Chantelle
Yeah, I mean, thank you for saying that. feel like there is this kind of, and it's so funny, because I feel like people on Broadway now are a lot younger than they were back in the day. Like I work with a lot of 21, 22 year olds who are fresh, you know, they are so green and so excited and thrilled to be there. And I'm like, yes, I see this energy. But to the higher ups, you know, they want you to be grateful, like kind of shut up and be grateful. It's like, we hear that and.
I see how that manifests for them of like, have to do this. I can't ask for this day off because they're going to be mad at me. You know, that is so, I see that like turning for them. And I just always remind them like, we can be so grateful for what we do and be happy that we're in this position that people dream of being in. And I can hold these people accountable and ask for what I need and take the day off when I need it. Those two things have to coexist or else you're just going to...
Burn out, probably.
Yes. Yeah. And also the stronger you are about that, the more confidence you give other people to also behave like that. Exactly. now I can see it. I can see something now with you that I never saw before. I didn't know this was possible. I didn't know I could use my voice. I didn't know I could call out all these different things. The more actions you take to protect yourself and your life and create the life that you really want, the more you are
allowing others around you to do that.
Chantelle
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why, I mean, some of them call me auntie. It's so funny just because I feel like I'm always trying to impart knowledge or just like let them know like you don't have to do this. Yeah. You have agency. It's yeah. I feel like there's a responsibility for me to do that and share my experience with them, you know, because I want them to have a better experience than I might have had at that age.
Yeah, you have that leadership completely embedded inside of you. So no matter what environment you're in, that's going to pour out. It's like, yeah, it's my first Broadway show and I'm here and I'm just going to let all the other people know exactly what they're worth, exactly what they're capable of, and exactly how they can and why they should use their voices. Yeah, that's incredible.
Pretty much.
Jessica
Do you have any funny or embarrassing swing stories?
yes. Okay, I'm trying to think of... I mean, as a swing, obviously you're gonna make mistakes. I think it is our job to do the best that we can and know our roles and have them be close to what the onstage cast is doing so that there are no surprises for people onstage with you. Yes, yes, yes. Also, we need to give each other grace because things happen. And when I was first starting, it's like you debut a role.
Yes, bring it on, bring it on.
Chantelle
and then you're rehearsing another role in the day. So you have a lot in your brain at once. And I remember there was a show where I thought I was one character and I was the other character. So I went, it was almost like the furthest from you could, the furthest you could be from your spot. I was like downstage left, should have been upstage right, like very far away. And when I got there, just seeing everyone's faces is so funny because you can't help but laugh when you're just so wrong.
It's like, you gotta be strong and wrong, you know? So I just made like the biggest cross, not doing the step, let go of the step, like ran into someone on my way there, you know, just a mess, like of this one section of a number. And, you know, after the show, obviously I was like, Hey, sorry, I was in the wrong spot and people get over it. It's not that deep. You know, I've had times where I'm in the wrong spot. And so someone like clipped the back of my shoe and now I have one shoe on for a whole number. Like it's insane. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean those are like the first that come to mind but I think that is something that I'm learning to love about swing life is that it's forcing me to let go of my perfectionist brain and attitude that I've had because I'm like it's never gonna be perfect. I'm always gonna mess up a little thing, you know, as much as I can have great shows obviously it's been really nice to actually come off stage and have to like laugh about a thing or give myself grace of
you know, I'm doing the best that I can and I'm gonna mess up and that's okay. It's actually been a really good situation for me that I didn't know I needed.
I totally agree and understand. what's really fascinating is, especially with dance, everything is about being in space, being in your body, being with people, right? Like everything is muscle memory and body, body, body. And then all of sudden you're a swing and you're not in space with people and you can only practice your dances like.
Jessica
in a rehearsal studio or whatever it is. And then when you're actually in the day to day of it, or let's say you're on the road and you don't have the ability to just do it every single day in a studio, you might not have space and you're just remembering it in your brain, brain, brain. Then all of sudden you have to pair that with being in a full as production. And it is so wild. It's like take the most embodied experience ever.
Put it just in your brain, but then expect yourself to jump right in and be fully embodied, know exactly what's happening around you, have complete spatial awareness. Remember, no, no, I remember even like the hardest things for me were take, okay, pull out this bench to this spike. And you're like, wait, wait, these people who do it every single day, it's second nature. Like, you know where to walk to. And me, I'm like, okay, I know it.
in theory, when I need to, where I need to hold it, when I need to come out, what number I'm putting it on, what spike color, but I'm looking for the spike color. Oh my God, where's the pink, where's the pink? Okay, my feet need to be around three and that's how I know. But then I'm looking out of my side of my eye, I'm looking at the number line, I'm like, okay, there's three, there's the pink spike, good, okay, great, but it's in the dark and now I'm scared and it's, like, little things that are just so second nature to people doing it every single day, when you're a swing, you are just.
You are just winging it. No matter how prepared you can possibly be off stage, when you are on stage, it is a completely different story.
yeah, completely different. Yeah, I mean the spikes are so funny too. I remember there was like one of my first shows I'm pulling a panel on, couldn't see the spikes cause it's dark. Like I've only seen them in the light. And so the panel is in the completely wrong spot. I get off stage and my friend is like, yeah, you actually can't see them or like, they don't look red in the dark. I'm like, well, no one told me that.
Jessica
Right. And we have like our color coded on our spreadsheets, like red spike, orange spike for this. And you're like, wait, I actually, can't, can't see anything. I'm just, I'm just guessing. I am just totally guessing. And also, you know, being in space with people with complex spatial patterns and blocking and traffic and all of these things that you will, okay. I can write down on a piece of paper.
what happens, but when crazy things are all happening within the span of 10 seconds, I'm gonna read my list in my mind. Like, no, it's in your body. You're just, it's just, a lot of the time it is just a guessing game of get out of the way and hope that people, you know, shove with love, get you into the right place and cross your fingers and.
hope there's not too much chaos because there will be chaos.
yeah, mean swings are superheroes.
Here we go. The whole wild. It's so wild. It's, and to be not matched with grace at the end of the day is bizarre. I had both. I had a couple of moments where I was not met with grace when mistakes were made. And I'm like, you know what? I'm doing the best I can do with what I have. that's all it's going to be.
Chantelle
Mmm.
Chantelle
Yeah.
That's it. You know, because they're not in your position, you're not in theirs. So, you know, they don't know what's going through your brain. A lot is happening. Even though I made a mistake, I am thinking so hard up there.
What is happening?
Jessica
So hard. One of my funny ones was like mid-show swing on. I didn't have the time to get my pin curls up and in a wig and everything because I had to go on right away for like the last, I don't know, 25, 30 minutes of act one. It's like a whole chunk where you don't leave. And I didn't have the time. So I just threw my hair. We were the male dancers in the wedding dance. And so I...
threw my hair back in a ponytail and I shoved it down my shirt. And then I put my hat on and I'm like, okay, great. Well, the hat doesn't fit right without the curls and the wig. So on top of all of the chaos of the mid-show swing on, I got this hat, bowlin', bowlin', down over my eyes, like crazy. And that choreography is no joke. So I'm like, la la la la la, bouncy, bouncy, bounce. So, you know, on top of just figuring out where to go, I'm like,
I have a little... The costume is coming for me. It's absolutely coming for me. So yeah, it's interesting that in a lot of ways, some of the most organized and perhaps perfectionist tendency... Wait, perfectionist tendencies... Wait, what am I saying?
In the costume.
Jessica
The people with the most perfectionist tendencies, there, that's not perfectionist saying that, are put into swing positions because of how our brains work. Yet we're the ones who are going to absolutely mess up the most and cause the most chaos. So it is a little bit of an exposure therapy situation. Loved it.
Yeah, I'm so... Yeah, I'm still loving it. I just signed on to keep doing it. Yes! Yeah, I didn't know that I would love it so much. feel like, you know, now people are like, would you ever be on stage? I'm like, maybe, but I'm so happy swinging right now. And, you know, the times that I'm not on stage, the way that we connect with each other and, you know, the community is so deep there that...
you if I'm not on, can have a really great talk with someone for the duration of the show, or we can play cards and, you know, connect in this really beautiful way off stage. So, yeah, I'm loving it.
I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy you found that and you are in this wonderful job and so many of your goals and dreams are being achieved. And my next question for you, what is one big, wild, outlandish dream of yours?
Chantelle
Wild and outlandish. Okay, I'm gonna try to think about something that... My cat just tossing my headphones.
Has he just been chilling there the whole time? yeah. On your left.
assistant. He just sits here. It's amazing. He's the best. Honestly, it makes me cry. I think a wild dream for me is to do like a world tour with an artist. mean, Beyonce, Victoria Monet, like someone that I really love. I think that is a wild dream to me. Not that I don't think it's possible, but it's definitely far, far away. You know, it's not something like originating a show, a role or something like that. feel like
I can do that soon, but I don't know. There's something about a world tour with a major artist. I think that would be amazing.
Oh, I think that is so much closer than you realize. I hope so. I I really, I know it is. If that's what you want, I know that that, I bet you, I'm gonna make a bold statement. If you wanted to, you could book it within one year of when you were leaving Broadway. Okay. Cause I'll say leaving Broadway because I, you your schedule's crazy and everything, but.
Chantelle
Wow.
Jessica
between taking classes and maybe spending more time in LA where a lot of that stuff is booked out of, 100%, one year. Let's bet on it.
All right, Jess, I'm feeling you're manifesting right now.
Bet on it, what should we bet? Or should we just bet the same thing because we're on the same page?
Yeah, we're on the same page.
So when it happens, then we'll celebrate. That'll be the, that's the bet. I know that's not really a bet, but it's my kind of bet.
Chantelle
Yeah, we'll go out for dinner for sure and celebrate.
Okay, to close us up off? Out, out. What did I say? I don't know. Yeah, let's close ourselves up before we get out into the world after being so open and vulnerable. Okay, what is something that the little you would be so proud of?
Out.
Chantelle
I don't know.
Chantelle
I feel like anytime I talk about little Chantelle I get very emotional because I love her deeply and she is why I do what I do. I think she would just be proud of the way that I've really stayed true to what I'm passionate about and how I've done work that is really aligned with, yeah, my values. know, performing is one thing but I've always...
wanted to help people and give back to a community that has given me so much. And that's why I do my nonprofit work that I am so invested in. And, you know, I can spend 40 hours working on a grant, but it's because I love it to my core and I know that it's going to make an impact for people. And I think Little Me has always wanted to do that, like to be a leader, but also like share and
give other people really meaningful experiences. And I feel like I've been able to do that in pretty much everything that I've done. So yeah, she's really proud for sure.
And can you tell us a little bit about the nonprofit work and how we can support and get involved?
Absolutely, yeah. So my nonprofit is called Toes for Dance. Toes stands for the Toronto Outreach and Exchange Strategy. It's based in Toronto, so all of our programming happens in Toronto, Canada, if you're ever there. We have a variety of programs. We run youth dance workshops. We have a dance residency program, and we have a week-long dance festival that is completely free for the public, with performances, workshops, all of the above. So to donate, because as much as we...
Chantelle
do get a lot of government funding for certain projects. are constantly working towards operational funding, paying our staff and really working towards sustainability. And so that is why we ask for donations. So you can go to toesfordance.ca because Canada. And yeah, just head there to find out more information, to donate. We have, you know, you can become a monthly donor or just at one time we are
Yeah, just so grateful for any contribution. mean, we will do the work regardless and keep applying for grants and all of these things. But yeah, I think community support means a lot to us too. So feel free to support if you're interested or if you want to get involved. You know, I live in New York, but I do so much work remote for the nonprofit. And, you know, I take trips to Toronto, obviously. But if you have an interest in that, I'm also always down to talk about.
Yeah, nonprofit life, how to get involved. So yeah.
And it's a beautiful reminder that you can have such a multifaceted life with so many passions and so many pursuits all at once. You don't have to be or choose just one thing to identify as or to do in your life. So keep an open mind and an open heart. And to close us out, what is a wish that you have for the world?
I wish for us to continue to cultivate more and more empathy and compassion for each other. I think we're in a time where there is a lot of conflict and disagreement and what I always come back to is I wish for us to be more empathetic and to be able to have hard conversations with people who don't agree with us because that's how we learn, that's how we teach other people.
Chantelle
You know, you're not going to change everyone's mind, but I think empathy and compassion go a long way and allows us to have a deeper understanding of why other people act the way they do, make the choices they do. And that is really important for us to be able to see. We can't just be blind to our own experience. Yeah, we need to be able to see other people and listen to them and hear them out. So yeah, that's what I would say.
Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been so wonderful. You were so wonderful. I love you so much. I'm so happy that we did this and I guess that's
Thank you so much.
Jessica
Thank you so much for listening to the story project. If you would like to support our show, you can do so by rating five stars, by subscribing on Spotify and or Apple podcasts. And if you could send this episode or any episode you like to a friend, that would be so helpful. If you're able to support the podcast in any way financially, you can do so on our Ko-fi page or on our sub stack.
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