Multidisciplinary with Spinks
SHOW NOTES
Multidisciplinary artist Spinks shares her journey through dance, acting, writing and ceramics as a queer, biracial woman. She shares why she walked away from musical theater, how she found freedom in commercial work, and the profound reason she hasn’t returned to a dance class…yet. Spinks and Jess also discuss the impact of capitalism on joy, creativity, and a building a career in the arts. This episode is for you if you’re looking to define success on your own terms, find fulfillment in your chosen craft, and carve your own unique path.
Time Stamps & Topics
00:00 – Meet Spinks; multidisciplinary artist, passionate soul, and creative wildflower.
02:08 – Weird Little Badass Babe
02:53 – The Winding Journey of a Multi-Hyphenate
11:04 – Walking Away From Musical Theater Dreams
18:34 – Storytelling and Movement Across All Art Forms
24:22 – Paycheck or Passion?
30:57 – The Brave Act of Vulnerability
34:54 – Reclaiming Creativity Outside of Capitalism
35:22 – Dance, Revisited
39:00 – Facing Fear, Again and Again
45:02 – Dance as Medicine
52:04 – Redefining Success
57:02 – Finding Calm in the Chaos
About Spinks:
Spinks is a multi-disciplinary artist based in Brooklyn. First a musician, then a dancer, and eventually an actor, Spinks has found herself entirely devoted to the performing and visual arts her entire life. Her work has been displayed in various theaters, on stages big and small, in cinemas, and in the quiet pages of several magazines all around the world.
On screen, she's been lucky enough to work with the likes of Google, Clinique, Planned Parenthood, Bio Glitz, and Cocoa Jones (to name a few). Her writing can be found published in FROTH Magazine, Strong Young Thing Magazine, Mixed Mag, and Issues 1-3 of Susie Magazine. Her ceramics have been featured by Florence Contemporary Art Gallery and American Design Club.
When not working as an interpretive artist, she can be found experimenting in all things performing and media with her production company, VERNE.
IG: @spi.nks
TRANSCRIPT
Jessica Altchiler
Okay, hello and welcome to The Story Project. I am here with Spinks. Spinks is a multidisciplinary artist based in Brooklyn. First a musician, then a dancer, and eventually an actor. Spinks has found herself entirely devoted to the performing and visual arts her entire life. Her work has been displayed in various theaters, on stages big and small, in cinemas, and in the quiet pages of several magazines all around the world. On screen, she's been lucky enough to work with the likes of Google, Clinique, Planned Parenthood, Bio Glitz, and Cocoa Jones, to name a few. Her writing can be found published in FROTH Magazine, Strong Young Thing Magazine, Mixed Mag, and issues 1-3 of Suzie Magazine. Her ceramics have been featured by Florence Contemporary Art Gallery and American Design Club. When not working as an interpretive artist, she can be found experimenting in all things performing in media with her production company, Verne. And with that, I am going to say hello to Spinks, hello!
Spinks
Hello. Yay! It's so weird to hear that out loud. It felt otherworldly, a little out of my body. No. Let's... Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
So with all of that said, I'm going to redirect us immediately and ask you, what is your human bio?
Spinks
Yes. Amazing. My human bio? What does that mean?
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. So what is your bio as just you as a human being? Not that you're going to put on your website necessarily or your resume, not the things you've done, but if you were to just write a bio about who you are as a whole, what would that be?
Spinks
Wow, what a fun question. I think my human bio would probably say Spinks is a weird little badass babe who wants to be your friend and will probably invite you to a dinner party.
Jessica Altchiler
I love that. That's perfect. That's perfect. That's absolutely perfect. So you have many different titles. You have musician, dancer, actor, writer, ceramicist, producer, company director. Yeah, all of these things. So how did all of these things for you come to be? What's the little backstory of where you...
Spinks
Yeah, well, it's really interesting because I was thinking about this this morning when I was getting ready to talk to you and it's hard to pinpoint. I feel as though like in a way ever since I've been like, ever since I was like little Spinks, I really viewed myself as someone who was like multifaceted and was like innately curious about a lot of things and how a lot of things worked…
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
a fault a lot of the time as a kid. And so I think, I don't think I've ever been just like one thing, strangely. Like I've never had that tunnel vision of being like, this is all I'm going to do, this is all I want to do. I've sort of had like a grander, wider vision of like
Jessica Altchiler
Mmm.
Spinks
like I can, like I will do all of this other stuff. And I think it all like feeds into each other. So I think to like put it plainly, I did go to a performing arts high school, which started a lot of it for me. And I think that that like probably had like the most...like the biggest impact on being someone who does a lot of shit. So I don't know if that answers your question at all. Yeah. Okay.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It does. So why do you say that it was to a fault when you were younger?
Spinks
Well, because I, so I grew up in household with very young parents. My parents were like baby teenagers when they had me. And I was so curious. I got into everything. Big Bookworm and less about, you know, like when little kids are like, why, why, why? why is their favorite word? My favorite word was like how. I wanted to know how everything worked.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
When the internet came around, was on that, I was on there. I was probably searching some stuff that I shouldn't be searching. So I got into, I was incredibly independent and I got into some trouble for being so independent and being sort of my own parent for a while.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
that I think it kind of gave me a little bit of an ego attitude problem as a kid that like, I was like, don't tell me what to do. I'm going to do what I want to do. I want to know how the world works. I want to know, you know, how things are made and yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So how did that channel you into a performing arts high school? How did you go about pursuing that? And was there a lot of resistance from your parents? How did that?
Spinks
Yeah, so I, from birth, I really wanted I like came out singing. You know what I mean? Like I didn't really crawl. I rolled. I didn't really walk. I danced. And it was sort of like a way for me to get adult attention and like sort of like that.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
that positive energy from the adults around me was like putting on a show. So I always was like a performer. I used to watch like Shirley Temple VHS tapes with my great grandma when I was little. Like I was like, if she can do it, I can totally do that. And like I said, I was like a talker. I was a yapper and in a wiggly worm. So I was put into dance classes very young, even though we so could not afford it, my mom and I. And I learned from a really young age that this is how you get that positive attention from adults is performing, putting on a show. So I did that for a very long time. I was very much a ham, total extroverted kid. Just would not shut up. We used to play a game that was called, How Long Can Aleigha Be Quiet?
Jessica Altchiler
Hahaha
Spinks
and I lost every time. And so I am. Yeah, that sort of led me into like the performing arts. I was lucky enough to grow. I'm from Rochester, New York. There's a performing arts high school there. It's very similar curriculum to like a LaGuardia here, just with less funding. And I remember like being on the bus in elementary school, like passing the school that had like the big school of the arts sign outside of it. And I was like, I'm going to go there. I know that something cool is happening inside that building. I want to be a part of that.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I'm, I'm going there. know that that is like, that's where I'm meant to be. Like weirdly, I was like, like magnetically drawn to that building. So.
Jessica Altchiler
When you went to that school, were you able to really explore different crafts and/or did you ever feel pressure to kind of tunnel vision into one specific craft?
Spinks
Um, I feel like a lot of the students are tunnel visioned. So the way that they make you go is, is very similar to LaGuardia. Like I said, you audition. I auditioned in fifth grade to go there in sixth grade. Um, you have to pick a major. was, yeah, I know just a little, just a little tiny thing. Um, and I was an instrumental major. I was playing clarinet by then. And so I picked that cause I was like, I was like, there's.
Jessica Altchiler
Little baby.
Spinks
this is, you I had been dancing and I was like interested in drama and things like that. But I was like, this is the shoe and like, if I'm going to get it, it's going to be through clarinet. And so it may be different now, but back then in middle school, you had a major and then like a lot of the other art classes, they would have you try each semester.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
So that by the time that you got to high school, you could either switch your major, decide to go to a different school or like stay with the same major. Now that they don't do sixth grade anymore, I know that they still have like a middle school, but I think it's a little harder to change your major now. But it was very much encouraged to try everything. Well, it wasn't even encouraged. was like, will be trying everything. Like you will, this for a grade, you will be trying every single other major as a requirement to see if there's something else that your little heart desires. So yeah, I went in as an instrumental major.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
Um, and all of my friends were dance majors and I danced as a kid. So I was like, you know what? think I'm going to also be a dance major. I also loved the dance department. Like the teachers were fantastic. So I, I switched my major in high school to dance. And then by the time that I left the school, I knew that I wanted a career in the dramatic arts somehow.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
I was doing like every single show. So I was like very much, um, and while I was there, I was like teching other shows. I was like very much a kid that was like devoted to school. I did not want to be at home. It was not a fun place for me. So I was like, I know that like being devoted to a craft, no matter what craft is probably going to be the best for me. Otherwise I'm going to be a very depressed kid. So yeah, I tried everything. Every major tried to.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
Pretty much every department tried to sway me into being one of those majors because I was just so interested in everything. I was like so gung-ho about trying everything and really threw my back into every single art that I could. yeah, I left with a ton of knowledge about a ton of different categories of visual and performing arts and it sort of
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
led me to where I am now. Someone who is ADHD. Yeah, it led to me ending up in New York. I left school wanting to be a musical theater actor, as we all do. And very quickly, I realized that I do not have the personality.
Jessica Altchiler
And where did it lead? Mm.
Spinks
to pursue musical theater in that way. I still don't think I do. I would define that personality as someone who is
Jessica Altchiler
What is that personality? How do you define that?
Spinks
My little brother is a musical theater major. He's gonna hate that I'm saying this. Someone who...is incredibly adaptable and can get along with a lot of different people at once. That is not someone who I am not of I'm not a very good ask a sir I know musical theater requires a certain level of there's like a militants to it of of you know like like a cattle call or something like that.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
that I admire that level of devotion to your craft, but I am not someone who is told what to do very easily. And I feel like when I was auditioning in musical theater, there wasn't much room for...
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
at least 10, 11 years ago. I know that the industry has changed, but there wasn't a lot of room for me to bring me to the table.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
And I know that it's changed because my brother is actually having a much better time than I did. But yeah, there's a level of interpretation that is still incredibly defined within the roles of musical theater. And that interested me for about five minutes. And then I realized, shit, no, I'm never gonna...
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
I'm not a cookie cutter type of person. I'm never going to fit into this very specific box. I'm very biracial, very queer, very like other in society as a whole. So like trying to fit into like a Rodgers and Hammerstein show 10 years ago was like impossible. So yeah, yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Right. Right.
Spinks
Now it's different. Now maybe, maybe in like another five years I'll reconsider.
Jessica Altchiler
Well, it's multifaceted because you have, like you said, the biracial aspect and the queer aspect, and that's going to be an enormous challenge on top of already being in a challenging musical theater industry.
Spinks
Yeah.Mm-hmm. Exactly. I wasn't really interested in... Now I'm a little bit more interested because musical theater, like independent musical theater is really interesting to me. But that didn't really exist. It existed, but not the way that it does now, like 10, 15 years ago. I've always been someone who...Like as soon as someone defines me, I'm like, no, I define me and I'm going to prove me wrong. know, like a little bit of a, there's like a part of me that if I am going to prove something, it's going to be on my own terms. And I found that to be very, very difficult within the confines of musical theater, which is hilarious since it is.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
such a wide combination of talents and assets you have to have as a performer. It's so interesting how limiting sometimes it can feel.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, I think also when you're talking about, I'm going to circle back to the term you said with ass kissing, because I think that no matter what industry you're in, there's going to be some trajectories that require the ass kissing and other trajectories within that same field that won't require it, but it requires finding the right teams.
Spinks
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
And connecting with the right people. so I know musical theater performers who feel like they can be themselves and can be fulfilled in that way. And some who very much so are, okay, one foot in front of the other, go down this path, go down this path, try to get this show and work with this person, things like that. And it seems to me from the outside, like,
Spinks
Totally.
Jessica Altchiler
your desires and passions are way more about creating from the ground up as opposed to coming in perhaps to an already established show for example, where this this book has been around for decades, the score has been around for decades and someone else has this visual of what they want this specific production to be and you're feeling like
Spinks
Yeah. Thank you.
Jessica Altchiler
boxed in trying to go and represent what you think they want you to be.
Spinks
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have like such I'm not gonna shit on musical theater. You guys are insane. You musical theater performers out there. You guys are crazy. Like I respect it so hard. There is something to like hop on hop on the back of what you just said. It's taken me a really long time to realize I flourish as like a self-starter or as someone who wants to do something from the ground up. It's taken my entire life pretty much up until now. I thank you for saying that as an outsider. Like part of me is buzzing on the inside knowing that that's like what you get from my weird little bio. But yeah, yeah, there's something and I loved musical theater. Like I love the scores. I love the artistry of it. I grew up
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
watching MGM movies on repeat. And some of those movies are still my absolute favorite movies in the world. I wanted to be Eleanor Powell. I wanted to be Ann Miller. But then eventually you have to realize like, I can't do that, gotta only be myself, you know what I mean? So like I, those people that can find the freedom within musical theater.
Jessica Altchiler
That's it.
Spinks
good for them, like stunning. Teach me your ways.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. Well, that's exactly what I was going to say in response to that, which is it's not the right match for you. It's not how you feel fully seen and the ability, you don't have the ability to fully express and fully be yourself. And some people will find that within musical theater. And similarly with any, you can interchange that statement with any craft and any art form across the board.
Spinks
Yeah, really. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
So with being a multidisciplinary artist, do you find that each of those disciplines, each of those crafts allows you to express one particular thing or do you feel like it all kind of meshes together?
Spinks
Um, it all for me does 100 % mash. They all feed into each other. Yeah, yeah, right now a lot of the acting feeds into the ceramic work and vice versa for me right now. Form and shape is really interesting to me and you know, all of that, both the performance, like the acting and the ceramic work is supported by my dance background. The movement is really big, being in the body is really big. And it's kind of funny because the ceramic work that I do is I do a lot of sculpture, a lot of hand building, and there is a rigidity to my work, but it is directly tied to like the fluidity of movement. Yeah, it all feeds into whatever I'm particularly interested in.
Jessica Altchiler
Mmm. And also perhaps it's because it's the rigidity that you're choosing.
Spinks
at the moment. Yeah, totally, totally.
Jessica Altchiler
So it comes back to you being able to make the decisions and literally, you're literally forming something with your hands, with your body, with your spirit. You're creating something that is tangible and it's entirely you. So no matter what you're taking from technique and structure and rigidity, it's all decided by you.
Spinks
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.And it's kind of strange because, you know when you're on stage and you have like the, when you're in flow, it's kind of like a blackout stage, like phase or whatever. The same thing happens to me in the studio. I black out for four hours or five hours and then there's something there. You know, it's so lovely to, cause you know, as a performer,
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Spinks
you get to do the opportunities that you're pretty much given. It's very difficult to make your own opportunities to perform. It's like being an actor is like, you know, the one performance art that you can't do in a room by yourself well. You need sort of that outside energy to feed your craft in a way. And so it's that blackout phase is what I'm chasing always, that flow feeling. And to find it in ceramics now that I've been doing it for a few years is delicious. Like whenever I'm like, I need to be on stage, I'll just go to the studio and like build something. And then I'm like, we blacked out, that's amazing.
Jessica Altchiler
Mmm. Well, the thing is also your work. I was looking at the series of boots and they're so alive. They're so lived in and I can see where you could bring the dance background into it because it's not just a boot that's standing up and it's a picture and you put, you're like, someone was wearing that. Someone walked in that, see how that fold comes over here and
Spinks
yeah, yeah, yeah. thanks.
Jessica Altchiler
the color and the texture and all of that. It's very alive. And so I can see how every bit of who you are can come through that specifically.
Spinks
Yeah, I'm not interested in, at least in ceramics, I'm not interested in anything too perfect. Actually in everything. I'm a little bit of a messy, know, like I'm not someone who keeps my shoes extra crisp. I'm like, they're on your feet. You should wear them. You know what I mean? Oh, your mug's amazing. You're welcome. But I...
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you.
Spinks
So like the shoes to me, it's a perfect blend of, because the very first thing that I wanted to make when I started ceramics was a cowboy boot. Like I said, I grew up very biracial, very Western New York, very much like half city slicker, half like cow town. And so I was like a cowboy boot actually sort of encapsulates both of those things. It's like the perfect marriage of all the things that I envision myself to be in all of my interests. I just, I don't know, I love a good pair of like worn out leather boots. Like to me, it's like the most beautiful thing because you know, the process of like, the wearing of the leather and like knowing that you worked your butt off in them or like, I don't know, it's just something that like really appeals to me and then I couldn't stop making them. Like I just can't stop.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. So you've worked with Google, Clinique, Planned Parenthood, this. So when you're working for a company like that, first of all, what's the context in which you're working? And also how does that type of work feel in your body when I would assume it's more structured and rigid than perhaps making ceramics?
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
or doing other things that are feeling a little bit more free.
Spinks
Of course. Yeah, so all of those companies I've worked with commercially as on-screen talent and oddly enough, or voiceover, I'm lying a little bit, voiceover too is in there. Oddly enough, those are some of the projects that have made me feel the most free and the most me, because I always convince people to let me improv. So for most of those projects, there was a script that was written and I somehow convinced everyone to let me go off script and have fun.
Jessica Altchiler
Mmm.
Spinks
So yeah, like there's a rigidity to them, but I somehow talk my way out of it every time. Yeah. Yeah. So in commercials are, you know, I'm sure you know, like a different breed of having to be a person. You really have to pay attention to like how you look. And there's like more faff to it, I would say, than like actually crafting like the performance of a character.
Jessica Altchiler
That's incredible.
Spinks
selling something is a lot different, a lot, you know, a lot more structured. So yeah, doing the commercials is a lot of fun. When I get them, they're few and they're far between, but it's always a project where they need someone to like be a little hammy. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. So interesting. you're, you're selling something and when we circle back to the musical theater conversation, you're also selling something in a different way. So how does that feel different? And does it matter to you what it is that you're selling, what company you're working for, things like that, or are you able to separate it more in terms of this is a job and I get to express freely because I'm
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
able to do more improvisation even though I'm in the structure of selling.
Spinks
Yeah, so I guess with the musical theater, like the difference for them, for me now, is for musical theater, I'm selling myself. For the commercials, I'm selling a product most of the time. Very rarely are they asking me to like, like I haven't done any, you know, like hair commercials, like I'm not selling you, like look like me, you know what I mean? The Clinique one.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
fell into my lap because I technically was hired as a model for, like a shade match of one of their foundations. And then the models that were supposed to do their commercials. Couldn't do them for some reason, like they were having trouble. And so they like saw my resume and they were like, you're an actor switch. so that was like a little less of, of like product-y product it was more like a you can have a clean face you know like if you use this product… But yeah, for me the difference is selling myself and selling or like trying to prove that I have the ability to do something I know that I have the ability to do rather than like selling someone else's product.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I’m pushing on this because I think a lot of us have an issue in terms of whether you have a dancer acting or modeling background, you are reckoning with this, okay, well it's my craft. It's my art. It's my form of expression. It's also my body and what I look like and things like that. So it's interesting to hear you talk about it because what just came up for me was, well,
Spinks
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
In musical theater, in theory, you're also selling, what you're doing is you're selling the show. So if I was to equate the musical theater and the commercial work, I would say you're both having to show up with what you look like and who you are and things like that. And then on one level, you're selling a show and on the other level, you're selling some kind of product or whatever it is. And the reason I'm harping on this a little bit,
Spinks
Yeah, totally. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
is because I know a lot of us in the performing arts get so stuck and so weighed down and maybe walk away from it for these reasons. And yet there's something perhaps, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, perhaps there's something a little safer or less visceral about, okay, well,
Spinks
Mm-hmm.
totally.
Jessica Altchiler
I don't have these years and years of this history of this struggle with the performing arts because, okay, no, I can just walk in and I'm selling this thing that I've never seen before.
Spinks
100 % and there's also, well, I guess you really have to, and this is something I've questioned for years is, Where are you willing to place your energy when it comes to being vulnerable within this field? For me, placing my energy where it needed to be in order to sell a musical didn't feed me in the way that placing my energy elsewhere, selling just a different type of story does. So, being vulnerable is just a part of the job, obviously, but it really is like what feeds you, what comes back to you, what really resonates with you. And for some reason for me being vulnerable in the way that it took for me to sing, dance and act at the same time and sell a very specific story that sometimes, was not anything that particularly interested me at the time for the shows that I would have been cast in as like a queer biracial person.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
it did not feed me in the way that maybe being vulnerable on screen for a character that maybe looks a little bit more like me or a character I can bring myself a little bit fuller to the table with would do. And so the commercial work, I don't feel any of that. I don't feel any sort of need to open, like particularly open myself up and,
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah.
Spinks
be super vulnerable. For me, that's more just play and I really enjoy it. Especially if I'm selling a product that I actually like. I have turned down commercials in the past, even though I've been hungry and poor. That's just who I am, you know, but I don't, I've never like to go back to your earlier question.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm. Yeah.
Spinks
I understand why people can or how people can separate themselves from selling a certain product or working for a certain company as an actor. Even if it doesn't align with maybe the values of their lives, I'm not here to judge anybody for me. I can't do that, yeah, so I have turned on work before. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. You've made such a beautiful point about where you choose to be vulnerable. And it's about that and it's about your life and your quality of life and what you're doing in your day-to-day life. And live theater is very stressful and the schedule can be stressful and
Spinks
Yeah. It is.
Jessica Altchiler
being live in general is just stressful and you hear people talk about it all the time. The stakes just feel so much higher. And when you do something on film, there is a cut and there's a do it again and there's an editing process and it's part, and that's also another type of vulnerability. Like it's about the expression, the acting, singing, dancing, and it's also about the live aspect of it.
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
and what your day-to-day life is and all of that.
Spinks
Don’t get me wrong. Straight theater is my jam. That is, if I could live doing straight theater for the rest of my life and actually be able to pay my bills, I would do it. Because I do think that there is a lot more flexibility. I just find it to be, for me, a more fulfilling medium than musical theater, even though I do really miss dancing and singing. I miss it a lot.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
But yeah, the vulnerability when it comes to straight theater too is very on par with musical theater. But I do find that for me in particular, there's a lane that I can land in. And sometimes it doesn't feel as open in the M.T. world. Yeah, the vulnerability thing is fun. It's a good time. It's a good lesson to learn as an actor. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, right. And the thing is that you can still dance and sing and act on your own terms. And it doesn't have to be in that context. And I think that's a really important note for everybody. Let them know you don't have to be in the professional trajectory to continue doing the things you love.
Spinks
Yeah. Let them know. Let everybody know. Yeah. Absolutely.
Jessica Altchiler
When you leave high school and you're not dancing or you're doing something completely different, you can still join a club or take classes. And even if you're going and you get your BFA and you graduate and you're like, wait, this life isn't actually what I want it to be. You can still bring it in in some capacity. And that's something that can be really hard, especially when you are excelling at such a high level for so long. And then you're like, wait, I'm just going to do this.
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
for fun? How can I go into a class and know that I'm maybe not as, you know, technically advanced as I once was, or, you know, I have more limitations. And that can be really hard for high achievers, which if you're in the performing arts, you're already a high achiever. So I think that's a really important reminder.
Spinks
Absolutely. I also, I'm going to piggyback off of that, not everything needs to be monetized, guys. You know what I mean? Just because you love it, just because you're good at it, sometimes there's a little bit of spark that comes out of... As soon as your joy enters capitalism, if the joy does not stick around, abort. Abort mission.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
You know what I mean? There's nothing more heartbreaking than losing the thing that you love just because you think you need to make money off of it. That's a lot of nodding happening.
Jessica Altchiler
A lot of nodding on my end. Yeah, that was kind of my past decade of BFA in dance, years of auditioning with nothing happening. like, what is this? What am I even doing? And also by the time I graduated, I hated dance. I was like, this is horrible. Yeah, it was just horrible. And I eventually found my way back through
Spinks
Yeah? Yeah. I heard that that happens.
Jessica Altchiler
This will connect to you, the Fiddler on the Roof Tour, which was my movement quality and it felt like I was coming home and it was a kind environment and it was a show I loved with music I loved. And I was able to go in there and these auditions and dance the way that my body and my soul want to dance.
Spinks
stunning.
Jessica Altchiler
And was like, right. was what I was, not everything is gonna make me feel horrible. So that's where I started to come back to the joy of it. But it's so easy to think, well, I just don't love dance anymore. I actually hate it, all this stuff. wait, no, no, no. I've hated the environment I was in.
Spinks
Yeah. Ugh.
Jessica Altchiler
I've hated this particular training or these particular auditions I went on. The joy for dance and the way I connect to it and the way that I do it has been there all along, it's just been buried so deep beneath everything else that comes your way, both when you're in a college program or when you enter the capitalist world or whatever it is, it's just piling, piling, piling. And then you have to be like, wait a second.
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Wait, let me just peek out the top. There's something else still for me. There's some way I can still do this.
Spinks
Well, that's sort of what happened with me in dance too. I hated it after, you know, working professionally, after auditioning, after struggle busing with very little support. I hated it so I stopped. And then for me, it was like a little different because I realized later on when I started really diving into acting and really, really, really training that like I need it in order to be a full human being. Like I it's just who I am. You can't just forget a part of who you are just because you know you're not particularly pleased with it at the time. Also do you know Maite?
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
Yeah. Yeah. Hi, Maite.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, from Fiddler. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. We were on together for a year. Yeah. She's fabulous. She's fabulous. Yeah, no, she's fantastic. She was our lead for.
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
the year I was there, then the year I was performing, and then I came back the next year as assistant choreographer, and she was still there, so I got to work with her a little bit then too. Just like the hardest worker ever.
Spinks
She's fabulous. I love to watch her perform.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. So with going back to the dance and joy and losing and finding. How do you keep dance in your life now?
Spinks
Stunning question. You know, it's hard. I haven't been in class in a really long time. There's a bit of fear there, as I'm sure you can imagine of going back into class and taking class. But I do still find myself booking empty studios and just having an hour or two for myself. I find that to be incredibly healing. I still go back home to Rochester and I'll go back to my high school and teach a master class. God, the kids are all right. They're all right.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
as all right as any of us can be at this time, but they are all right, which I love. I love teaching the high schoolers. And then I do a lot of devised theater and I tend to interweave a lot of movement that way into my work.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, yeah.
Spinks
So yeah, and I'm big fan of dance theater still. I still go and see a lot of like dance concerts and things like that. That in a way also feeds me a little bit. But I try to keep it around, you know? Like I'm particularly beating myself up for not being in class because like I said, I don't really pursue it professionally anymore. I consider myself...retired. But I do know that in order to be a full actor and performer on stage, I still need to embrace that part of my artistry. I do I do try to, you know, keep the wheels from squeaking.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the fear of going into a dance class is very real and very common. And even through the past few seasons with my guests, it's come up multiple times. And these are people who are professionals. It's wild what can happen.
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
in this industry and in school. And we are the only ones who can push through it and overcome it. And I say that as someone who I just started taking a beginner ballet class. And a few months ago at the new studio I'm teaching at, they have an adult jazz class and
The first time I went in there, I was absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified, which is just wild. Why? It's a jazz class. You're doing it for fun. But it took me, so I started off weeks and weeks I was teaching and then finally I got myself to go to the beginner ballet class. And then I did weeks and weeks and that and I was like, okay, now I'm ready to go into the jazz class.
Spinks
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Jessica Altchiler
And I do it and there's this warm up and the entire warm up, my body is tense. My joint pain is back. Like everything that I felt the last time I took jazz class, which was some semester, maybe my senior year or something like that, long time ago. And I just remembered all this stuff. And then we got to the combo and I was like, wait, this is fun.
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
wait. this was supposed to, this was all supposed to be, I get it now. Right. Right. And something clicked. And so I, my advice to people who are fearful about reentering the dance space, go into a beginner class, go into the lowest stakes class possible. Yeah. And you can stay there forever or then you can say, I want
Spinks
Yeah. Of course. That is the plan. 100%.
Jessica Altchiler
the next thing when I had done this. A couple of years ago, I re-entered a beginner ballet class and then a few weeks later, I felt confident enough to go to the intermediate class. And it was only because I said to myself, I want more. I want to get to the Grand Allegro. I want to move through space more. So that's why I'm going to do it. It wasn't, I was, I was trying to be really careful about how I was thinking about it.
Spinks
Of course. 100%. I find that, I mean, I don't know if this is, this is probably universal with everyone who's ever taken a dance class ever. There's something about the part that scares me about taking a dance class again, that the part, it shouldn't even say scares me. It's not a scary place, but it does make me very nervous. it's knowing that I'm just going to have to re-meet myself and that's the part that is terrifying because I'm reintroducing myself to myself at a very different point in my life I feel as though it's going to be incredibly cathartic but also there's a scariness in that you know it's like being scared to take your first therapy session or something. Like I know that there is, I know I'm gonna have fun no matter what because dance is fun, inherently. I don't have a choice. It's gonna be fun. But I do also know that there is a coming to terms that will take place and it's getting around that. That's gonna be crunchy. And you know, it's exciting, but it is also like, I need to be...I want to be fully present for that and fully aware when I do it and that opportunity has not presented itself yet for me to be fully present and like gung-ho about that. So it will happen. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, I think
there's also a sense of mourning when you re-enter that space later in life. for me, I've thought, okay, well, what about all those years where I was either terrified or traumatized or moving through this fear and these feelings? Okay, you're mourning that. You're mourning the way that you were dancing back then.
Spinks
Yeah, absolutely.
Jessica Altchiler
and the way you were feeling, all these things. And for me, I found that I think I'm the best dancer now compared to all the other, compared to even like when I did Fiddler, even when I was in college, I think the more time and space I have as a human being and the more pause I have and the more I can say, I'm really doing this
Spinks
Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
for me, I'm not saying my stamina is gonna be the same and I'm not saying that my turnout is gonna be the same and all these things, but in terms of dance and what it is and my movement and my expression, I think that gets better over time.
Spinks
Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah, I'm wondering, do you...Do you think the joy has changed? Do you think the level of joy has changed? Or do you have like, what is your relationship with that re-entering dance class?
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, great question. I think.I'm not trying to pursue it professionally right now. And that allows the joy to come in a little bit more because the pressure of being something specific has dissolved a bit. Now I would love to dance again, but in only specific ways. I can't, I...
Spinks
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
I can't do a full three hour top to bottom bust your body eight days a week type of thing. I don't want to, and I don't think I could anyway, but talk about other scenarios, specifically a movie musical, or I'm even enjoying
Spinks
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jessica Altchiler
So, my gosh, I'm really enjoying teaching my musical theater dance classes now. It's the first time I'm teaching them consistently and not just doing master classes, I'm doing like those weekly classes and joy. It's just like, what fun, incredible musical theater song should I choose to choreograph this week? And then we go in and we have a warmup that's
Spinks
Yeah, ugh, the best.
Jessica Altchiler
specifically designed for whatever choreo I have created. And then we rock out. We just have fun and we're dancing and performing and I'm pushing people and I'm saying, it doesn't matter that you've messed that thing up. It doesn't matter if we're in class. And so that's been healing too.
Spinks
Yeah. That is something that I very much miss about MT is that dance classes are the best, the most fun genre, I think, that you can possibly have is to get into a musical theater dance class.
Jessica Altchiler
And I really, I don't even know that I've taken a musical theater dance class. Yeah, because I, I just did, my major was dance and I had that one semester of jazz, but other than that, it was modern and contemporary kind of, and a lot of ballet. And then I, I would, I would just learn choreography at auditions. I really don't think I took class cause I was already so burnt and I was just showing up at auditions as a zombie.
Spinks
Really? Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
And, and then Fiddler happened and Fiddler is, you know, it's part musical theater and way contemporary. And yeah, I genuinely, I genuinely don't know if I've ever taken a musical theater dance class straight up.
Spinks
Yeah. Even better, even better because then you can create your your own parameters, your own rules. You know what I mean? Like you're not basing it off of anything except for your own joy and the joy of those that you're teaching.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. Right. Wow. I've never thought about that. I never, I never put that together, but yeah, maybe that is why it also just feels so entirely freeing because I also teach ballet and I teach jazz and those things are way more structured and you have, okay, you're going to learn these steps during this level. And then we move on to this, but with musical theater,
Spinks
You
Jessica Altchiler
as I always tell my students, because I teach like a whole range of students. teach from young ones to adults and yeah, the adults are so fun. So what I always say is that you have everything. my gosh, there's this bird on the balcony. my gosh, there were two. One had a literal highlighter orange head. I've never seen that in my life. And the other one had like a mustard head with that high-lighter orange beak. I have never seen those in my life.
Spinks
Shout out to all the bird watchers out there. How do you do it?
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, what, someone tell me what that, my gosh, that was crazy. I just see this color and it's like kind of gray outside right now and just, you know, there's green and gray basically. And then all of sudden this bright, vibrant color just, whoa, okay. I'm back.
Spinks
That's amazing. Those are the literal manifestations of your dancer joy in bird form. Just chilling out there. Yeah, bright colors, yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, yeah, the bright colors and yeah. But what I always say is you have everything across the spectrum. So one end you have the American in Paris, you have Phantom of the Opera, all of that. And on the way other end, you have a Fiddler, for example. And so we get to do everything in between, which is also why the warmups vary, because it'll be dependent on
Spinks
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jessica Altchiler
what we're doing, but I think that's also what feels so freeing because what really defines musical theater anyway, we just end up defining it.
Spinks
Exactly. Yeah. 100%. That's why I think it is so fun because like it depends on like, it really is a fun genre for teachers to throw themselves into without having to rely on a set curriculum. You know what I mean? Like ballet is universal. Jazz is pretty much universal at this point. Modern is, you know, it depends on who you're studying, but it's universal. So.
Jessica Altchiler
So with your career, can you explain as tangibly as possible how you cultivate the work you want while also supporting yourself financially?
Spinks
Yes. Yeah, totally. It's a loaded question. So it's changed a little bit since COVID. Yeah, so I have been very, very, very lucky to have been up until probably the last year a full-time artist supporting myself financially since
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
God, uh, 20, 2017. Um, yeah. So COVID kind of fucked up all my plans as it did for all of us. Um, but I, before then, you know, like I've always, and, now I've always had sort of like a regular old bartending gig. And I've been fired from every single…
Jessica Altchiler
Wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
customer service job I have never had.
Jessica Altchiler
That seems aligned with what you've described.
Spinks
Yeah, bartending is the one that sticks because, you know.
Jessica Altchiler
You can be you.
Spinks
If someone's, yeah, if someone's silly, I can just cut them off. but I, I do, I'm lucky to be in projects that pay when I have to, when I, I, I've stopped working for free in 2019. I made a promise to myself. I was like, I cannot work for free anymore. unless it is doing a favor for a friend that I love. That's it.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
For a stranger, can't do it, can't work for free. So when I do take work, I make sure it pays. It doesn't have to be a lot, but it has to, I have to be compensated in some way. Otherwise it feels soul sucky, even if I love the project, because I know that I have bills. Ceramic wise, everything that I've,
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
pretty much done. I've done a few markets here and there which helped me towards the end of the year. Around Christmas time is like the time for ceramics for people to like buy everything no matter what type of ceramics you make. But since I do not make anything practical, the boots are vases but like that's about it. Not everybody's gonna want a cowboy boot vase.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
commissions as I do a lot of commissions and that is how I support myself that way. I have a best friend who is very much a real people person when it comes to her job. She's a recruiter or no, now she works in HR, rip. But she's always, she was my roommate for a bunch of years and this is our first, we just moved out of our last apartment at the end of last year. So she's always been sort of like a lovely backup plan. You know, like if I really needed help with rent or if I really needed help with something, she was always super duper duper helpful. And we had like a yin and yang sort of ordeal where like, you know, I'll help you with this, you help me with that.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
So the really hard times in New York, I've been very, very lucky to have that one person to help me with my, as my main support system. But yeah, mostly it's been working as an actor, working as a writer, doing commercials, ceramics, all of that, and tax season is hell every year.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm. Oh my gosh.
Spinks
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's how I've been supporting myself. And you know, there's no shame in bartending again, you know what I mean? It is what it is. And it helps me sort of fund the projects that I'd like to do with my friends. So yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's incredible. I'm gonna finish up with this. I know it's a heavy one, but how are you feeling?
Spinks
Yes.
I love this question. It's not very heavy at all for me. This is a very easy question for me to answer. How am I feeling? Content. Right now. Today. Today I'm content. I oscillate. I'm a sad girl. Naturally. So today I'm okay, I think. Yeah. That is one thing that I do love about being an actor and being a performer is that we are very in touch with how we're feeling 24-7. So today, today I'm okay. Yeah. Yeah. How are you feeling?
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm. Good. I'm very happy to be here talking to you. Feels good to be getting this season, next season up and running. I think for me,
Spinks
Yeah. Okay.
Jessica Altchiler
There's a lot going on in the world. It's terrifying, it's horrifying.
Spinks
Yeah. Yeah. There's a heaviness, there's like a general heaviness everywhere,
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, so it feels a little bit like, okay, we're sitting here and we're talking in these conversations. I know to be important and also holy shit.
Spinks
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I say I'm feeling content, I mean like truly right in this moment. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Right, right.
Spinks
I highly recommend for anyone out there that can do it, get off of the internet for a day, just do it. Or for as long as you can manage to do so. I know that that also can be anxiety inducing for certain people. For me, I had to delete everything for a good month in order to come back into myself and show up in the ways that I know are full and capable of the resistance that is necessary right now.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.
Spinks
And that is the only reason I think I feel content is because I deleted everything for a while. Yeah. Otherwise I feel like I'd probably be drowning. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I'm just grateful for my Lexapro and if, if, if they, if some assholes try to take it away, I mean, assholes are trying to take it away, but yeah, we, we love them. We need them.
Spinks
shout out Lexapro.no. Yeah, that's how I feel about my Paxil. Come on SSRIs. Talk about a commercial I would be willing to do for free.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, yeah, I don't wanna end on that note. So I changed my mind. That wasn't the last question. What is one memory of yours performing or expressing wise that makes you so bubbly happy?
Spinks
Yeah. So bubbly happy, my god. Okay. That's very interesting because like I said, I tend to black out.
Jessica Altchiler
Mm-hmm.
Spinks
There was talk about I've been the same person my entire life. One of the very first shows I ever did. It was the greatest achievement of my life. I think I was in third grade and it was Goldilocks and the three little bears.I, of course, was Goldilocks in a wig. But I was Goldilocks and there was a part where the big bear, Papa bear is like scary, right? And I remember there was one performance, there was one performance and I was in my elementary school cafeteria, which actually had a stage, incredible. And the direction was to be scared and to run away, which is just the other side of the stage. And for some reason in this moment, I said, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, this is my performance. I'm gonna do what I want to do. And if I'm gonna be scared, nobody's gonna believe me if I run to the other side of the stage. I have simply got to run away completely. I ran off the stage through the audience towards the back of the auditorium. Stopped before I got to the door. Obviously did like a full like Meryl Streep like, like look back towards the stage. The drama was high. Every single adult thought that I was like scared of being on stage and like thought that I was like literally running away from the performance, but no baby, I had them eating out of my hand.
Jessica Altchiler
The drama. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
I remember turning around and I remember thinking, the audience is mine, I have got- And then I went, I walked back up stage and I was like, I'm not scared of Papa Bear. I'm still in it. It made me so happy as a kid for some reason. think not doing what I was supposed to, like evading that authority, that direction, because I was such a little shit that I was like, yes, can't tell me what to do. I'm making up my own direction. That direction was stupid anyway. I'm going to do it my way. This is so bad. No one's ever going to hire me again after this.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Spinks
sound crazy right now. But it made me really happy because I think it was the first time I realized that the audience goes along with you. And not that I would ever, ever do that again as an adult, because that's insane. But it was so fun to like, realize that you as a performer, you do actually have a little bit of the power and like you can sort of shape the story in your own way. Wow.
Jessica Altchiler
Hmm.
Spinks
So defining moment of like, but I remember being very, happy afterwards because I did what I wanted. That's crazy. That's all crazy. But also because
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah.
Spinks
I got to perform. I was just so happy to be on stage as a little kid and to have all of these adults being like, brilliant. She's brilliant. Send her. her. Disney. Get her into Hollywood. So silly. But yes, I remember being so, so giddy after that. Couldn't shut up. We had to play the how long can Aeleigha stay quiet game after that.
Jessica Altchiler
Star. That's incredible. Well, that's a perfect way to stop this. Thank you so much. I appreciate you if someone I just met you, you know hour and a half ago so nice to meet you
Spinks
Thank you for having me. Yeah. This has been so fun. Thank you so much for having me. You were stunning. Loved it.
Jessica Altchiler
You are stunning. I loved it too. And that is it. So thank you. Bye.
Spinks
Thank you, bye.
Jessica Altchiler
Thank you so much for listening to The Story Project. If you would like to support our show, you can do so by rating five stars, by subscribing on Spotify and/or Apple podcasts. And if you could send this episode or any episode you like to a friend, that would be so helpful. If you're able to support the podcast in any way financially, you can do so on our Ko-fi page or on our Substack. And with the sub stack, you're also getting some essays and journaling prompts. And last but not least, if you would like to work one-on-one with me in a coaching capacity, we can work on dance technique, musical theater, audition preparation, yoga and wellness, career coaching, and college prep. Thank you so much.